Friday, August 17, 2012

Setting Up the SA Hub on the Bike

Well, it's time for a new post. Every couple years ought to keep things going,eh? In the spirit of having this be a forum of sorts, I'm posting another S3X enthusiast's story and questions. The ones that can be answered mostly relate to setup. The others boil down to preference. Anyway, let's dive in with Europa's bit:

Ahhh, it's story time.
I'm about to convert my bike to an S3X. She was custom made to be fixed gear but has geometry more like your 80's roadie - you can think of her as a modern, lugged steel framed, fixed gear sports roadie. She's got track drop outs (with 120 spacing) and, being built for fixed gear, the only cable guides are for brake cables.
I live in a flat (sorta) city surrounded by our version of mountains. Naturally, I live up on one of them lumpy bits and so get to grind up the sodding hill and do the hamster on acid routine on the way down. Being an ageing wombat, having gears sounds like a real good option while maintaining the fixed gearing that I love so much.
And conversions are sooo easy aren't they - HAH!
My first issue is that my current rear wheel has 32 spokes - this seemed a problem until I discovered that Sturmey Archer have moved into the latter part of the 20th century and now offer a 32h hub ... but you can't get them from the cheap sellers on ebay and Amazon (dammit). Okay, so I can pay shop prices, over the internet because the industry in my country is soooo enlightened but seeing this is the bike I hope to be riding when the doctors take my bike away from me, the cost is bearable (and if you believe that, I have a bridge I'd like to sell you).
The alternative of course, is to get a 36h rim.
Well, my wheels are the Miche Express. I like them. They are light, strong, have held their true and while I was initially skeptical about the weird graphics, I actually like them. No, Miche don't sell rims and don't do them in 36h anyway. They also make the rims themselves (as they do everything with their brand name) and they have an odd cross section so just buying 'something similar' proved to be an exercise in frustration.
The bike is pretty special to me so I don't want to go Frankenbike and have mismatched wheels.
One option is a new wheel set - ie, S3X, two good quality rims, front hub, spokes and a pleasant couple of evenings lacing them all together (I enjoy wheel building). Not surprisingly, that adds up to quite a lot of money. 
And I'd like to keep her looking like she does now.
And I'm a stubborn sod about unimportant things sometimes (which is probably why I get away with riding fixed gear). 
Now that it appears I can get the S3X with 32 holes, that's the way I'll go ... I think ... maybe.

Now we get to the bits I don't really know about - how to make it all work.
I want the bar end shifter, and you can get them individually on ebay as well as with hub sets, so that's not a problem. I've never set up a bar end shifter but can't imagine it's any more difficult that what Shimano has thrown at me over the years (am I delusional? Again?).
Then there's the cable run. I use panniers so going down the rear seat stay isn't an issue - it'll be down the main tube (the front one that collects all the road grime) and along the chain stay. 
My original thought was to run the cable within an outer all that way, the thinking being to keep it clean, but I believe Vance has found that you want to minimise the amount of cable outer you use. That leaves some sort of cable guide near the top of the main tube and one of them funny wheel gadgets that Sturmey Archer sell.
Am I right in imagining that I can buy a clamp that takes a nylon fitting that will bolt to my main tube to hold the cable outer?
From there, do I only need one of those wheel things to get the cable around the corner and thus to the hub?
Is there anything else I need to get, or would be advisable to get, or at least consider?

Thanks for reading. 


Well, if the bridge happens to be the Golden Gate Bridge, a really nice guy already sold that one to me a while back. But, I've always liked the Brooklyn Bridge....

I have, on two different bikes, both a fully sheathed shift cable, and a bare cable running over a pulley. Both work fine. However, the covered cable method is a bit stiffer and a bit less positive. I prefer the pulley setup for its positive, easy shifts, but like the sheathed version for weather protection and clean appearance. It's also easier to set up on frames sans cable guides and stops. You just clamp it on with nylon ties.

In order to do the bare cable over a pulley, check the pics on my earlier post. It shows the stop, clamp, and pulley that are necessary to set it up that way. These things are available from various sources that carry SA parts. 

As for the route, I had the downtube/wheelstay run setup once, but I kept getting heel strikes on the shifter chain. Running it along the top tube and down the seatstay works much better for me. Let me say here that I wear a size 13 shoe (huge) and you normally proportioned guys might not have that problem.

I'd say doing the conversion to S3X is fairly simple. Anyone who can build wheels should have no problem doing this. As you know from my pics I use bullhorns which makes the barend shifter installation very clean.   

Certainly, one wheel is cheaper than two. I happen to have no problem mixing wheels and spoke counts and all that, but I certainly understand the compulsions that drive us enthusiasts (of anything, really). So, how you go about your compromises is your business. One thing: being a big, heavy guy, I prefer 36 spokes, especially on the rear. Having 32 on the front is ok, but I'd prefer 36. One of my bikes has a 36/32 and the other 36/36.

OK, that's my two cents. Anybody else?

16 comments:

  1. Thanks for posting it Vance.
    I too am a generously proportioned wombat. Thanks to the availability of wheels and rims (here anyway), I've ridden fixed with 32 spokes for some years now without the rear wheel go out of true. Modern rims are much better than they used to be (according to my lbs bloke anyway) and if you build the wheel right in the first place ...
    However, all else being equal, I'd still go for 36.
    Regarding the cable routing - I'm lucky enough to have smallish feet so heel strike shouldn't be an issue - the long chainstay helps too (she's not some short coupled track bike).
    Regarding cabling, maybe I should try a fully sheathed set up at first and, if (when?) it gives problems, try the open set up. I use drop bars and should imagine that most cable friction will be in that area.
    I guess the other option is to put the shifter on the downtube, but I'll try other options before going that route.
    How often do you change gears? Is it a bit like normal geared riding when you change a fair bit or do you tend to ride in the middle gear, only using the others when you hit extremes?

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  2. No problem. Thanks for your input. That's why the blog exists.

    I actually like the downtube mounted shifter (you know, it comes apart and will mount on a braze-on) but it sounds like your frame wouldn't have one.

    My rides are done mainly in the top gear. I rarely shift. I think that's why my hub has given me so little trouble (plus the fact I alternate bikes). They don't get a lot of mileage.

    I shift down at a stoplight or sign if I think I'll have trouble mixing it up with traffic or there's an immediate climb. I'd say I shift no more than a half dozen times a ride.

    You shouldn't have tremendous difficulty with friction in the cable sheath at the drop. I'd just allow a fairly generous arc coming off the bars and onto the frame. You might try short sections of cable sheath where dirt might be a problem. There are old school cable stop frame clamps around that could work in this application. However, I'd start with the full run and work from there.

    I still enjoy riding my S3Xs and have had no problems with them. I don't skid or put them under hard use, and they are treating me well. The reason I was interested in the hub in the first place is still the reason I like it now. I really like having a range of gear ratios that matches the terrain I ride.

    I read this over and over again when people are considering the S3X: Wouldn't it be great if I could just change gears to get over or down that hill that makes my fixed gear rides difficult/uncomfortable/ scary/painful/etc.? It is!

    I think the problem that gets in the way of this becoming a popular fixed gear solution for those folks is the lack of pre-built wheels. The only one I know about is a wheelset from Bikeisland, and not everone wants to sink $300 American $'s into an experiment.

    Cheers!
    Vance

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  3. Yeah, terrain is a bit of an issue, though not as much of one as people imagine. I really only need the gears for the extremes and my speeds on normal, rolling terrain or the flat, are no different to my geared bike. I do have some medical issues that can result in a massive lack of energy so the thought of a bottom gear for just rumbling is attractive too.
    Thanks for the feedback on cable routing.
    I now know what to do ... sort of.
    I know how to do it ... maybe (I can muck up anything I put my mind to).
    I know where to get the bits from.
    All I need now is the money - I wonder if I can sell the cat into slavery to earn a few bucks.

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  4. Yeah, the bits and pieces mount up, and the wheels aren't cheap to build. That cat probably just lays about all the time sucking up kitty chow, so he might as well contribute.

    Good luck with it, and please check in with the results or with anything you'd like to share with the rest of us.

    Vance

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  5. I still haven't got anywhere with this - no money, which appears to be an issue for most retailers. The other issue is finding someone to sell me a 32 hole hub. I really don't understand how SA expect to sell their kit, a situation probably not helped by a bicycle industry ( in this country) that only wants to deal with the lycra clad set, well, those that believe you MUST ride what the pro's ride ... hmmm, am I ranting?
    Anyways, can anyone help me source a 32 hole S3X hub ... at a cost less than my custom made bike?
    Failing that, I'll need to build a new wheelset ... and use one of those cheapish hubs you can get on ebay, immediate issue being that those are probably from early prodction runs whereas the 32s would be from a later run and probably better as a result.
    If i do decide/ find the money, to build a new wheelset, I'll need to decide on both rims and a front hub.
    SA make front hub - does anyone know anything about it?
    Then, which rims? Light and strong rather than bullet proof - what the roadies call "training wheels because I'm a large, economy sized wombat and the sealed goat tracks they call roads here rival anything you'll meet in the outback.
    I'm happy to consider a wheelset but haven't found one available to Oz (Australia) - the above mentioned Bikeisland, and others, don't ship outside the USA.
    I've looked for road wheelsets I could convert but no-one does 36 holes so I'm back to getting a 32h S3X hub and building it into my current wheels ... only I can't get the stupid hub.
    I need another glass of scotch!

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  6. I see hubs on eBay for as little as $99 US (Wheelandsprocket) with free shipping (of course that doesn't apply to international shippng), and 36 hole rims are available from eBay and online stores.
    My hubs are early, 36 hole, and have held up well with no maintenance except adjusting the cable now and then. I wouldn't hesitate to buy one from eBay. As a matter of fact, when I find a silver or black 130mm hub at about $100, I'm going to buy it and stash it away for when I need it for one of my bikes. I have a feeling they won't be around many more years.....

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    1. Are people buying those hubs on ebay? If they are, the sellers do seem to have a lot of them. I confess I hadn't cosidered that they might not be selling and eventually they'd become unavailable.

      Maybe it's time to recost the whole wheelset idea.

      Does anyone know what the SA front hubs are like?

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  7. Howdy. I am hunting for a 32 hole 120mm S3X, or really any other 3 speed internal fixed/free hub w/o a coaster brake. It appears that they are no longer available, and I'm wondering if I can grab a 130mm and swap out the lock nuts. I am willing to stretch to 126/127mm, but would prefer not to go all the way to 130mm. Thoughts?

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  8. Hi Carly,
    I have stretched out a 120mm and narrowed a 130mm to fit old steel road frames, which aren't quite 130mm. I think they're 126mm. The only problem I'm aware of is the axle length, but going from 130mm to 120mm shouldn't do anything but leave you with excess axle poking out the track forks or dropouts.

    These hubs use a different axle diameter and thread than usual, if I recall correctly. There are places that specialize in Sturmey hubs which will have the nuts, but you should only have to remove some from a 130mm.

    If your frame isn't a 120mm, but the wider old road frame width, you'll have to get some axle nuts of the correct thicknesses to make your size if using the 120mm hub. Some dropouts are thick, so I'd suggest making sure the axle on a 120mm will be long enough. I looked briefly at ebay, and I don't see any 32 hole hubs for sale. There are both 120mm and 130mm axle hubs in 36 spoke, though.

    Good luck!
    Vance

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  9. G'day Carly
    My Europa is currently wearing a 130 ( geared) hub though admittedly, she was 126 to start with. My understanding is that provided the fame is steel, stretching from 120 to 130 shouldn't be a problem though you'd probably want to get a fame builder to reset it for you, the reason being that a fame builder will have a jig and be able to ensure that the fame is correctly aligned afterwards, especially the dropouts. I priced getting this done once and the price was quite reasonable for the benefit gained.

    I was interested in your comment that the 32h hubs don't appear to be available any more. I'm also searching for one and have had the same experience. Frustrating because the alternative is to build a complete wheelset ... or have mismatched rims.

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  10. I'm finally getting my S3X!
    Streuth it's been a journey but I finally got a good pay packet on a forthright with no bills and the threat of the Aussie dollar about to drop dramatically, so I wrote off to a bloke in the US. He doesn't deal with SA normally but is happy to follow up unusual requests - late last year, he tried to get me a 32 hole hub, only to find they had been available, but not any more. Strangely, he ran into similar issues this time.
    I couldn't afford a new wheel set for my Hillbrick, so decided to just buy a 36h hub and install it in my Europa who already had 36h wheels ( the Hillbrick has 32). She's also an 80's roadie with a rear fork spread of 130mm.
    So I asked Scrod to get me a silver, 130 OLD, 36h hub.
    Simple eh?
    Not on your nellie. The silver hub is available in 120 but not in 130. I could have had black or any of the other ghastly colours, but not silver. This hub was going in an existing wheelset, with silver hubs. Grrrrrr.
    A bit of research suggested that I could make the 120 hub work in a 130 fork, so I FINALLY BOUGHT MY HUB!
    Sheesh, thought it'd never happen, but it did. And the hub arrived ... along with a handfull of spokes to rebuild my wheel.
    I dismantled a perfectly good wheel.
    Laced in the new hub ... with the help of my 12 year old daughter ( genuine help, my little princess is growing up).
    Remember, the plan was to use this hub in my Europa, but I got to thinking - I make my biggest mistakes that way.
    My Hillbrick is my number one bike ( the Europa is first in my heart, the Hillbrick was custom made to reflect the Europa).
    The Hillbrick has a 120mm rear triangle with a 120mm rear fork and horizontal dropouts - she was purpose built for fixed gear, complete with higher bb and Columbus Zona tubing. She's the bike I ride day in day out.
    Stuffit, I thought, SHE can get the Europa's new wheelset. The argument against that is that the Europa's wheels are Velocity DeepV rims, which are bullet proof but not the lightest.
    Anyways, with no attempt to sports shorten a long story, my Hillbrick is going to get a wheelset with Velocity DeepV rims, 36 spikes, Ultegra front hub, S3X rear hub.
    I'm going to attempt to set up a downtube shifter, the thought being that this way, I need no cable outers at all. The hub came with a bar end shifter but I don't plan on shifting frequently - this hub is to help me up and down a 3km hill that tops at 13% and spends too much time at 8-10% for comfort. I believe I have the kit to set this all up.
    I hope to have this working within the week. Wish me luck, it's been a long road to this point.

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  11. Good luck with the hub. Let us know how it works out!

    The downtube shifter works well. Just remove the barend plug from the SA shifter and fit the shifter to your frame. Hopefully, you have the braze-on!

    Vance

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  12. I don't have braze ons Vance. I've bought a single sided clamp-on mount from some bloke on ebay who takes vintage Huret mounts, removes the old mount and brazes on a modern mount. Should look good.
    How much tension is in the shifter cable? The frame doesn't have one of those nubs to stop a clamp on mount shifting so I'm guessing I'll need a layer of rubber under the clamp to stop it shifting. Same with the cable guide at the bottom of the downtube (got one of those wheel thingies).


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  13. The tension is pretty considerable, and the shifter cannot move or you'll be in a wold of hurt when it it slips into a false neutral...

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  14. Rats, wrong answer. Looks like rubber under the clamp with a view to eventually having a stud fitted,

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  15. Finally got to ride with an S3X :)
    I built the hub into my Europa's wheels thinking to use her but typically, the wheels and shifters, etc went onto the Hillbrick which is my number one ride. Initial impressions are that it's great down the 10% grade I face going to work, but only less horrible when it comes to coming home in the evening. I'll give a more detailed impression after I've ridden her a few more times, when she may even have her own wheels, not a set she stole from the Europa.

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